Curse

scruffy · Jan 19, 2009, 08:51 AM // 08:51

damage compression problems

hammer warrior: dstrike is like 50-80 damage in half a second, and triggers the deepwound too, this skill is the difference between a kill and an infuse a lot of the time.

suggestion: see distracting blow

ranger: read the wind +10 damage and makes arrows travel faster, pretty nice damage compression. On top of that, you have bow attacks that do more damage than axe warriors that activate in the same amount of time. On top of that, rangers can use flail 24/7 to make them attack even faster.

suggestion: get rid of activation times on ranger attack skills, aside from interupts, nerf flail to require points in strength to be considered useful, do those two things first then look at read the wind.

ritualists: ancestors rage damage and caretakers charge trigger at the same time: 100 damage in 1 second on a largely defensive character.

suggestion: make ancestors rage just another attack spell like renewing surge or something

water mesmer: able to use shard storm, steam on spikes for very high amounts of damage on a largely defensive character

suggestion: defensive characters shouldn't be able to help kill people this much

cracked armor: why was this condition implemented again? oh because spiking warriors all day is fun i forgot.

suggestion: dont keep this one for GW2

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 19, 2009, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

cracked armor: why was this condition implemented again? oh because spiking warriors all day is fun i forgot.

suggestion: dont keep this one for GW2

This condition is kind of a must now, try killing 100+ armor monks without it.. :|

bungusmaximus · Jan 20, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

ritualists: ancestors rage damage and caretakers charge trigger at the same time: 100 damage in 1 second on a largely defensive character.

suggestion: make ancestors rage just another attack spell like renewing surge or something

Makes me wonder what more uses rits will have when you nurf ALL their damage. They won't suffice as healers because monks are better, and when their damage sucks the RIT will RIP :P

Keekles · Jan 20, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

IMO: Increase the max hp all around, and give physical attack skill + damage a nerf.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 20, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Makes me wonder what more uses rits will have when you nurf ALL their damage. They won't suffice as healers because monks are better, and when their damage sucks the RIT will RIP :P

There's nothing really wrong with the damage rits do, it's just the fact that they can do 100+ damage that hits at exactly the same time up to ~150 damage in a single second.

And rit runners often don't even bring any damage skills anyway so..

God_Hand · Jan 20, 2009, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keekles

IMO: Increase the max hp all around, and give physical attack skill + damage a nerf.

I pray to god that was sarcasm.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 20, 2009, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

I pray to god that was sarcasm.

If I was in charge of GW2 balance, increasing the max health might very well be the first thing I'd do (and I think/hope Izzy realised this as well), at this point in GW1 changing this isn't realistic anymore.

Ensign · Jan 25, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Builds still kill through pressure, it's just invisible now. What I mean is, what you think of as a 'traditional' balanced/pressure build scored kills by putting damage on a team through poison, ESurge, smite, and the like, then spiked out lowish targets with Eviscerate and Shatter Enchantment. This strategy necessitates being able to put damage onto a team and having it stick a while. That is not possible in modern Guild Wars, between Protective Was Kaolai, Divine Healing, and Word of Healing. Those skills are cheap, fast, and relatively immune to disruption. As a result 'pressure' damage that goes on a team is a big waste of resources.

Pressure now comes exclusively through fast spiking. You want to use concentrated damage to make the Monks expend a lot of energy keeping the target alive, then spike another target immediately afterward; repeat ad nauseam. Eventually their Monks go dry and they start dying. The pressure is on their energy bars but not their health bars. This sort of spiking is enabled by cheap, quickly recharging skills that hit hard enough; the goal isn't to clean spike people, as much as make them pump defense into a target, then nullifying it by switching.

That's how you kill in Guild Wars now; the only team I've seen that's any good at doing this is rawr which is all you need to know about why they're winning.

I disagree with Awowa about the game being just as defensive during the GWWC / GWFC; but not because of the offense / defense balance, which was pretty similar to where it is today. The difference in those tournaments was the amount of resources spent on movement; skirmish tools were much stronger then, and aggressive movement was orders of magnitude stronger. So that was a bigger part of the game, and has gradually worked it's way out. Now we have omega snares and other very, very strong anti-split tools, coupled with a big hit to offensive movement tools; the shift from 5 offensive characters with a bit of defense to 5 defensive characters with a bit of offense hasn't helped either.

The game is much more 8v8 focused than it was during the World Championships. Otherwise the offensive / defensive balance is about the same. The primary difference in that balance, as has been said many times before, is that offense is now more compact while defense is more distributed, while the opposite was true before. This has consequences on the types of movement and the types of offenses that work; but the raw amount of offense on a team is relatively unchanged. It's just built into 3 guys with some spike assists now instead of spread more evenly over 5 guys.

House Silvermoon · Jan 25, 2009, 09:50 PM // 21:50

wow i thought you left us forever ensign it's really good to hear from you again.

wuzzman · Jan 25, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

He was too busy trolling the warhammer forums to be bothered with this hell hole.

Perkunas · Jan 26, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50

I don't PvP, so I probably should not have read all of this thread, but I did.

Many times pvp people come to pve threads telling people to "quit whining and adapt" when nerfs and buffs happen to "balance" pvp.

rawr sounds like a group of experienced people that has found a way to win most of the time. Quit whining about it and learn how to find a way to beat them on their own terms. Don't nerf my Ranger or any of my other classes just because you can't beat "Goliath".

The only "balance" that I see that needs to happen, is to improve your game play to match their level of play, not bring theirs down to yours.

Reverend Dr · Jan 26, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

You also shouldn't have posted in this thread either.

Mobs don't care about balance. Remember when prophecies was (considered) hard? Does the lich complain about your new PvE skills? Do those low level raptor babies complain when big bad level 20's wipe out their whole family? No, they are AI and always there. Players in PvP can (and largely have) leave.

Ultimately unbalanced games are not fun to play and never hold a playerbase. Players from rawr itself have many times said that they win by playing unfun builds. There are a lot of balance complains that are not valid, but the adapting part of the 'quit whining and adapt' attitude is finding a new game.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 26, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

I don't PvP

Then what are you doing here? Pretty sure these are PvP forums.

Quote:

Don't nerf my Ranger or any of my other classes just because you can't beat "Goliath".

Really? This is your reason to post this? You're afraid your PvE classes you no doubt 'worked hard' for get nerfed? Okaaaaaaaaaay.

This post was written under the assumption that the average guru poster is too stupid to conciously troll.

la_cabra_de_vida · Jan 26, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

This condition is kind of a must now, try killing 100+ armor monks without it.. :|

100+ al monks aside, cracked armor is one of the problems with the game today. 20 less armor = 25% more damage from all armor affected sources. All spike builds (well mostly all) use this skill, because its that good at making things die faster and easier.

Perkunas · Jan 26, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

I never really considered the game hard. It was a challenge until I learned the skills and how to string them together. As far as PvE skills go, I don't use them. Only one used was UB in one series of quests in EotN.

I started playing GW Christmas 2005. I played on dialup back then. It took 6 hours to install the game and sometimes 2 hours to change zones. About once a week there would be an "update" that would make me sit through an hour of waiting to logon. I didn't know what the updates were, nor really cared at the time. I would see people complaining, "They nerfed ----, or they buffed ----."

The first update that I actually saw the effects of was the "Loot Scale" update. I had been farming skales outside Fort Ranik, in presearing. Before the update, every skale dropped something on death. After 2 trips, I would need to empty my inventory. On one of the trips to empty my inventory, there was the new build message in chat. I exited and logged right back on, headed out the gate.

"What the hell?" After killing every skale, only had 1 item drop. Zoned into town and back out. Killed all again, 3 drops.

Guild mates were complaining in chat about the drop rate change. One of them had "looked it up" to see what the update was about. This was how I learned of these forums and a couple of other sites. I read up on several of the updates. Hind sight showed me why my Monk was not as effective as she had been, why I had to change skills on my Ranger to get through certain areas that had been fairly easy, but no longer was. Same with my warrior, Nerco, and Ele.

I also begin to see the "rift" between PvE and PvP. PvE complaining about their builds being nerfed, PvP saying "quit whining, adapt, this game was meant to be PvP, need to keep PvP balanced, etc, etc,........."

Everyone likes to win. For many people, winning is all there is. They do almost anything to win. They study the situation, all the factors involved, then determine the best route to use to win. Some of these routes may be difficult or not fun, but it is the winning route. They will try to make the less fun route more fun, by working with "powers that be" to "improve" their choices for winning. These tend to be, IMHO, the Elite ones.

Then you have the group that wants to win, can beat the less experienced with ease, but when they face the Elites, they can't defeat them with the same ease. Instead of putting in the time to study what the Elites are using and looking for the best counters, they start screaming, "Nerf --- and ---. They are to overpowered!" or "Buff ---- and -----, they are too weak!"

The ones that are not involved in PvP are the ones that "pay the price" for the "nerf wars", and are told to quit whining and adapt. If we venture onto your turf and tell you what you tell us on our turf, we get "What are you doing here?" What you do in "your" world also has effects on "our" world.

All I want to see, is less changes made in my game play, because you can't spend enough time to find a way to win against someone that has spent that needed time.

ele pl · Jan 26, 2009, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

I never really considered the game hard. It was a challenge until I learned the skills and how to string them together. As far as PvE skills go, I don't use them. Only one used was UB in one series of quests in EotN.

I started playing GW Christmas 2005. I played on dialup back then. It took 6 hours to install the game and sometimes 2 hours to change zones. About once a week there would be an "update" that would make me sit through an hour of waiting to logon. I didn't know what the updates were, nor really cared at the time. I would see people complaining, "They nerfed ----, or they buffed ----."

The first update that I actually saw the effects of was the "Loot Scale" update. I had been farming skales outside Fort Ranik, in presearing. Before the update, every skale dropped something on death. After 2 trips, I would need to empty my inventory. On one of the trips to empty my inventory, there was the new build message in chat. I exited and logged right back on, headed out the gate.

"What the hell?" After killing every skale, only had 1 item drop. Zoned into town and back out. Killed all again, 3 drops.

Guild mates were complaining in chat about the drop rate change. One of them had "looked it up" to see what the update was about. This was how I learned of these forums and a couple of other sites. I read up on several of the updates. Hind sight showed me why my Monk was not as effective as she had been, why I had to change skills on my Ranger to get through certain areas that had been fairly easy, but no longer was. Same with my warrior, Nerco, and Ele.

I also begin to see the "rift" between PvE and PvP. PvE complaining about their builds being nerfed, PvP saying "quit whining, adapt, this game was meant to be PvP, need to keep PvP balanced, etc, etc,........."

Everyone likes to win. For many people, winning is all there is. They do almost anything to win. They study the situation, all the factors involved, then determine the best route to use to win. Some of these routes may be difficult or not fun, but it is the winning route. They will try to make the less fun route more fun, by working with "powers that be" to "improve" their choices for winning. These tend to be, IMHO, the Elite ones.

Then you have the group that wants to win, can beat the less experienced with ease, but when they face the Elites, they can't defeat them with the same ease. Instead of putting in the time to study what the Elites are using and looking for the best counters, they start screaming, "Nerf --- and ---. They are to overpowered!" or "Buff ---- and -----, they are too weak!"

The ones that are not involved in PvP are the ones that "pay the price" for the "nerf wars", and are told to quit whining and adapt. If we venture onto your turf and tell you what you tell us on our turf, we get "What are you doing here?" What you do in "your" world also has effects on "our" world.

All I want to see, is less changes made in my game play, because you can't spend enough time to find a way to win against someone that has spent that needed time.

/agree HELL /agree 12chars

But this is not what the topic is about. Its about Rits that need 2 out of 8 skills to be super offensive, and 6 other skills to be defensive. Or FC mesmers with a lot of melee defence (hell, steam anyone, need to mention snares?) and make big damage in seconds (again steam, shatterstone). Needless to say what more. I miss old Guild Wars, where pressure builds were meta, and it was fun. If i would have chance to choose between own enemy by spiking each of them, or just apply pressure on the entire team, to make them dieing itself, i would like to choose the second option.

I don't know, what is the pvp meta heading, but i just hope its something good, skilful, and the most important, fun.

Byron · Jan 26, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The offensive / defensive balance is about the same. The primary difference in that balance, as has been said many times before, is that offense is now more compact while defense is more distributed, while the opposite was true before. This has consequences on the types of movement and the types of offenses that work; but the raw amount of offense on a team is relatively unchanged. It's just built into 3 guys with some spike assists now instead of spread more evenly over 5 guys.

This true, but you can't deny the stale state of spike and spike and spike. Even little things like pushing for a flagger now seem lost in the dreadful 8v8 3-2-1. It's what led me to become now tired of the game.

I feel that, besides the nightfall power creep, this may have been exacerbated by the lack of shutdown. Since nightfall, the shutdown midline has become a relic, or has become a one-hit character: ie, camp the me/e, p-block the prot, etc. (there was the span of imba shutdown when MoR was all the rage, but that seems irrelevant). IMHO, this due to the lack of utility and effectiveness of a midline shutdown player.

Necro shutdown does nothing without an abundance of hexes, for some reason. Mesmer shutdown can't hold up against physical midliners. If Anet plans to make GW2 as rich and rewarding as GW1, they should consider balancing not only offense and defense, not only elemental and physical, but also shutdown against all of the above. I feel that the skillful, competitive, underappreciated practice of shutdown is what made GW distinct from the damage-and-heal of other games.

scruffy · Jan 26, 2009, 08:43 PM // 20:43

lol that guy is whining on a pvp forum because he has a bad internet connection and his favourite farming location got nerfed??

the problem isnt that people dont want to find counters to rawr, its just that the counters that do exist seem extremely flimsy, like the one warrior defensive spike build, while it can win 8v8,rawrs build can beat it in a split situation. rawrs build is simply the best possible one you can use at the moment, its too efficient at everything so if you run anything else you're hurting your own potential. Thats why you saw really bad players come second place in the mAT, finishing better than the euro teams who are 10x better than them.

Michael805 · Jan 26, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Fast casting of course is an issue that also needs to be adressed, Izzy has been very reluctant to deal with this sofar an has chosen the approach of nerfing the /X skills (e.g. Icy Shackles, Glowing Ice etc.) this has sofar resulted in making E/X even more unviable and not bothering Me/E that much at all.

Make fast casting only affect Mesmer skills.

Mesmers and Necro's are the only 2 classes who's primary attribute extremely effect what skills the classes can play. Soul Reaping has been hit in the past, so why not FC? Fast casting has been a problem for years (see: FC air spikes or before, to present) and I think it's about time it was at least looked at.

Perkunas · Jan 26, 2009, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

lol that guy is whining on a pvp forum because he has a bad internet connection and his favourite farming location got nerfed??

Not complaining about a bad connection, nor a favorite farming place nerfed. That is a brief history of myself, how I saw updates at that time, and how I came to find these forums.

When PvE'ers complained about PvP balances, PvP'ers tell them in PvE threads to quit whining, go play a different game, etc. Now I as a PvE'er should not be posting in a PvP thread.

Ranger skills are being discussed in this thread, a certain build being "to powerful." Certain Monk skills are also, mentioned in this thread. In the past, I had seen the changes made to the skills I had been using, but only knew that they were changed to appease the PvP crowd. At first when I asked why the changes, I am labeled a whiner.

Like I said in last post, less changes to my game play, because people can't adapt in PvP.